Leo and Pernille from Sailing AGH didn’t start their liveaboard journey the way most people do. What began as a creative housing solution in Copenhagen grew into a passion for exploring Europe’s beautiful coasts aboard their 35-foot Hallberg Rassy sailboat—with their dog, Kai, as the ever-enthusiastic third crew member.
In this episode, we talk about their route through Europe, from Denmark to Greece, the Canary Islands, the Azores, the British Isles and back to Denmark. They share honest insights about sailing in the Mediterranean, why they loved Ireland’s natural beauty, and the joy of anchoring in lesser-known destinations.
We also dive into the challenges and rewards of sailing with a dog, practical tips for managing life aboard in winter, and their philosophy of keeping things simple—both in sailing and in life. Whether you’re planning your own European sailing adventure or just love a good cruising story, Leo and Pernille’s journey offers plenty of inspiration.
Catch the full episode now on the Liveaboard Sailing Podcast (or just listen on the player above!).
You can find Leo and Pernille on Youtube, Instagram and on the A Green Heading website.
Transcript
Leo and Pernille from A Green Heading:
Annika: Let’s start with one of my favorite questions. What first sparked your interest in the liveaboard sailing lifestyle?
Leo: It’s probably quite weird. It was actually the need to live somewhere. So I moved for a job to Copenhagen. I had an opportunity to stay in a flat for, I think, two and a half, three months. But during that time I didn’t get my act really together. I start looking for other opportunities, but it’s all so expensive and then you have to share with other people.
And during that time, or a year before, my dad was actually sailing alone in Patagonia on his boat. And when I asked him one day, I mean, you stayed on the boat in Patagonia during cold weather. wouldn’t I be able to do that in Denmark? Uh, yeah, yeah, no problem. So I started looking for boats, and I actually found a really cheap steel boat, for 38 feet, for really cheap.
I bought it. I found a harbor two minutes from where I work, basically where we stay today as well. Uh, yeah. And that’s how it slowly started. I didn’t, I wasn’t really a sailor. I sailed with my dad.
Pernille: You grew up sailing . With your parents. So he always says he’s not a sailor, but it’s not the same way. I, I hadn’t ever been on a sail boat until I met Leo. So, you know, it depends on on your perspective.
Leo: I didn’t know how to drive the boat. I don’t, I still don’t have a sailing license. Shouldn’t be saying that. But I bought it, the guy who sold it helped me park it in the harbor and the next time I really struggled putting it out and back again.
But, uh, I learned. Then I met Pernille, and we started enjoying sailing more and more so we did more weekend trips and so on. And it slowly evolved to us actually liking it and then we bought the boat we have now. We found it. That was a good offer. My dad was also visiting, so he knows about boats.
Yeah, so we had good
Pernille: advice. Like, we had an expert to give us advice, which was very helpful.
Leo: And that was now five years ago? Six?
Pernille: Yeah, it’s crazy.
Leo: Yeah, we have lived on it nearly full time, except maybe two winters, parts of the winter, when we were in Greece.
Yeah, it is small, but, uh
Pernille: It’s also funny what you can get used to, because I came from living in flats in Copenhagen to move on to a boat, and in the beginning I thought, How am I going to do this? Like, I have to walk up to the showers every time I want to take a shower. I have to go to the, to the marina facilities and all of these things in the winter and stuff.
I don’t know. I just thought it was going to be a little bit challenging maybe to live like that. But no, we just get used to it and it’s fine.
We’re still doing it. After a
Leo: while we realized there are actually more people. So if you’re not alone and you see other people doing it gets more normal.
Like. you share the struggle and then it’s okay. But, yeah, it came out of not so much, maybe not at all the love for sailing because I kind of hated it a bit when I was small. It was more the necessity to find a place to stay and not spend all my salary on
Pernille: On rent in Copenhagen.
Leo: But yeah, it evolved into much more. Now we really like it.
We probably like the sailing more now than living on the boat.
Pernille: Yes.
There’s also, yeah, confidence. As I said, I had never been sailing before I met Leo. So the first time he took me to just an island that’s two hours sail from here, I was so seasick and I thought, this is just the worst thing ever.
But then you find little things you love about it and I still get seasick sometimes, but I found so many things that I actually do love about sailing that I can live with the occasional seasickness.
Annika: Yeah, that is actually so reassuring to hear because I also have a tendency to get a little bit seasick.
So I’ve had my fair share of seasickness.
Leo: I also get seasick.
Pernille: and the dog doesn’t get seasick. That’s important. He’s the only one who’s never, never seasick, so we’re very, we’re very happy about that.
Leo: Yeah, my dad sailed alone across the Atlantic and so on for three years.
He still gets seasick.
But it goes away sort of. Normally you get them once, you get seasick, during a trip and then you’re okay, and then maybe the next year again or if you have a longer stop.
Annika: Exactly. And you learn to not do certain things like don’t go down below when you start, you stay outside a little bit on the deck and all these things I find were helpful for me anyway.
Now, you mentioned your you found your boat and it is a Hallberg Rassy it’s about 35 feet, right?
Leo: yeah, 352 model So Yeah 35 feet.
Annika: Nice, yeah, those are beautiful boats. So, you started in Denmark in 2021, and your journey has taken you kind of all throughout Europe by now, across, amazingly beautiful destinations. And I’m wondering, could you give us a bit of an overview of your route? Where have you been now, now that you’ve returned to Denmark? So where have you been between now and 2021?
Pernille: Oh, well, we started sailing from Denmark in 2021 and then it was still COVID time, so like the first month of April we were just sailing around Denmark and then we went to Sweden to the border of Norway in May, and hoped they would let us in, but they wouldn’t. And then we hoped maybe we could just skip over and go to Scotland, but that was also still very difficult at the time.
So we ended up just going south first and so that year we sailed, to Greece.
Leo: Yeah, we did basically all the countries on the coast.
Pernille: And then we spend a year and a half in, in Greece, where like Leo’s family lives there. So we stayed with them.
We sailed around. So a lot of the islands, not all of them, there are many, but we saw a lot of them. But it was good to have like, like a whole full season to explore Greece. And then in gosh, 23 we sailed to the Canaries. So we sailed back out again. Spent the winter there last year and then we sailed to the, Azores in 24 to Ireland and via the south coast of England back to Denmark.
Leo: So we also rounded Denmark that way.
Pernille: Yeah, we circumnavigate Denmark. Took the
Annika: long way around.
That is impressive. Yeah. Long way around circumnavigating Denmark. Yeah. I think you got some extra miles in there.
Pernille: yeah. definitely.
Annika: obviously you can pack a lot in, you know, years of exploring a whole continent, but what have been some of your favorite, places or special places? I’m sure Greece was one of them since you spent a lot of time there. anything else pop up in your mind?
Leo: For sure, we still , love a lot Sweden, the west coast. I mean we haven’t seen the east coast, but we really like the west coast. It’s a bit like a cold Mediterranean. A
Pernille: cold Greece.
Leo: A cold Greece. Yeah. A lot of anchorages. Not so crowded. But still you never, still there’s a lot of people obviously sailing.
But, some wildlife and beautiful sailing honestly. Then what else did we really like?
Pernille: We really enjoyed Brittany as well actually. It was such a beautiful place and especially after Normandy and going through the English Channel it was quite challenging and there are no anchorages and then you come to Brittany and it’s beautiful and it’s quite easy sailing and I think a lot of people are really busy, sailing across the Biscay when they come that way, at least a lot of Danish people are, so they kind of forget to explore that part and I think it’s such a shame because it’s actually really beautiful. lovely place, for sailing. So in terms of where it’s easy to go sailing, it’s Sweden, Greece and Brittany I think has been the easiest part, but
Leo: at least we were lucky in Brittany as well. Yeah, we had good weather
Pernille: Yeah, it was true, but
but the Azores was always a big goal for us from when we started we knew we wanted to go there You’ve been there before with your dad.
I’d never been there. And it might not be the easiest place to be sailing, because again, no anchorages really, it’s very crowded, the season is quite short, but it is a spectacular place. It’s wonderful, I can’t believe that, I’m very happy that there aren’t that many people going there in a relative sense, but I can actually not believe that there are, that it isn’t more crowded there than it is.
Leo: No, no, it’s really beautiful. Yeah. Yeah, and Ireland as well. The UK we also enjoyed. I mean Everywhere.
Annika: Yeah of course everywhere is special in its own way, but it’s really nice to hear your thoughts after so many years and so many places. What I don’t hear is the Mediterranean listed there. I wanted to ask you because I watched one of your Q and A videos. Um, and you mentioned that you would not sail through the Med again, and I’m not sure if you were serious or not, but could you tell me why that was? If you were serious that you would not be looking forward to sailing through the Med again?
Pernille: I think it’s important to say that it doesn’t mean that we wouldn’t sail in the Met again. It’s um, I think we would definitely stay out of the Med in the summer months, July and August, it’s too hot. It’s too, it’s too crowded and it’s too expensive. It’s just not worth it. But yeah, in the off season, definitely.
Leo: And one thing I think we heard also from many sailors, like sailing through the Med is quite, it’s not crazy, not a crazy distance, but it’s still a few good legs you have to do and The wind and weather never really plays along. Like, it seems to be shifting every, I don’t know, 8 to 10 hours it shifts a lot.
The forecasts are not really precise, often you have no wind. And the other thing, it’s often tempting to stop as well. So, although I would like maybe to say, okay, you’re gonna power through. Then it’s often so shit that you say, okay, I can stop, like, there are the Balearics, there’s a harbor, I think it’s, it’s, can be challenging in that way, especially if it’s hot or windless, it’s still quite the open sea, so you still can get, quite the heavy weather or confused seas, so in that, in that regard, it’s not, not the
easiest. I think it’s much easier to sail from Gibraltar to, to the Canaries than sailing from Gibraltar, let’s say, which is about the same distance to the Balearics in the Med.
Pernille: Yeah, you’re more likely to get a good, decent forecast the whole way. At least in our experience, it’s been hard to really go more than three days at a time in the Med, even when we tried to, It hasn’t really worked out for us.
So then it becomes a long journey if you can, if you can’t make it that far at the time.
Leo: It’s also not as bad as it sounds.
Pernille: It was just, when we were leaving, we were just, ah, we were stuck around Italy in July and it was just the worst heat wave there. And we were just suffering. So I think that’s just like, Our latest memory of it, which is not very good, but the heat wave was really intense.
Leo: You need some time and some fuel and some patience.
Annika: yeah, absolutely. I’ve heard a lot about the winds, how they’re very shifty and change a lot and all that. And the heat waves are definitely a thing in Southern Europe, even here in France. I spent August in Southern France or not even all of August, like two weeks in August in Southern France and I was toast.
It was like over 40 degrees and I was like, why this is terrible. And I wasn’t on a boat, but I was in a non air conditioned house, which is all the houses in France because they are not too familiar with with air conditioning unless it’s a newer house and Yeah, it was just a lot at that point. I’m like I need to move back to Finland or Go somewhere somewhere cooler because i’m not made for that
Pernille: No, it was, it was such a shame because people were like, Oh, you’re so lucky, you’re spending the whole summer there. It’s like, I can’t do anything. Like, I’m just lying down or looking for shade wherever I can find it.
Leo: I think one of the times we spent less time outside while sailing was sailing from Sicily to Sardinia.
It was so hot during the day. Okay, we also have no real shade on the boat. Like, if you have a boat which has a good bimini and stuff, it might be slightly different. We don’t have that. So we were actually sitting inside and every 20 minutes we would pop outside. On autopilot and look if everything is okay.
Pernille: It’s not, we wouldn’t advise that. But we were so desperate. We just, we couldn’t, we really couldn’t be outside. We were just burning. It was terrible.
Annika: Yeah, just hiding from the sun Well, that is really interesting to hear though, because obviously the Mediterranean has such an appeal to a lot of cruisers and sometimes I feel like Mediterranean has become like a synonym for Europe like that’s all that there is sailing wise you just go to the Med and that’s All you got to experience in Europe, but obviously your experience shows that there are so much more to explore Once you leave the Mediterranean. Now, are there any highlights in Mediterranean area that you would recommend for someone who inevitably will end up going there?
Pernille: I think it’s just what I would recommend in general. It’s just like, there are some places that people think, Oh, I have to go there. I have to see, I don’t know what your idea is to go to Santorini or Mykonos or, you know, those places that you’ve heard of. It’s really crowded and it’s even worse when you go with your own boat.
It’s like, don’t do it. Go look for those places where other people don’t go, where it’s the places you haven’t heard of. Because there are actually many, especially in Greece, there are many little gems that we have been lucky to find. Where you really have that, like, this idea you have in your head of Greece, you know, the beautiful beaches, and clear water, and where there are not that many people, you can find it.
You just have to be a little creative.
Leo: Yeah, and I think the same applies for most of the Med there. There are still some hidden gems.
Pernille: Yeah, but everyone goes to the same destinations. Those places are just hell. It’s too many people in one place. And
Leo: also experience, like I think one of our most memorable moments was when we were sailing along Sicily towards Syracuse and we were sailing with three knots and the spinnaker and it was really calm and then suddenly we saw sperm whales just passing through and I mean they’re really not a lot in the Med. It’s really rare that most people don’t even know they are there. Yeah, that’s magical. And then Syracuse was also after that experience really beautiful. Normally Italy is really expensive. Everywhere it costs like 100 or at least 50 euro a night. And Syracuse has like a public harbour, I don’t remember. This is
Pernille: like a town quay and you can stay there five days for free.
Leo: It’s a bit of a mess. Yeah, it’s very loud at night, but for three days It was just perfect.
Pernille: And we found the best pizza we’ve ever had there. I know people say that it was so good We went back the next night. It was it was perfect.
Leo: Yeah, yeah, they are nice places.
Pernille: Many nice places. They can watch our YouTube and see those places.
Annika: That is such a good point because obviously, you know, the Mediterranean is famous for its travel, not just for cruising, but land travel. So there are a lot of famous destinations, like you mentioned, Mykonos in Greece and the different places to Amalfi coast in Italy and all these things where people are like, I want to go there on a sailboat, but yeah, it will come with a cost, but obviously it’s a very large area. So there are some hidden little islands there still, which is, great to hear.
Leo: Yeah. And you can, if you search long enough, I think even the very popular places, like if you hit the right weather window, you can still anchor somewhere maybe for free or a bit close by. So it’s not always, and not always is it worth it, but you can do it.
Annika: Yeah, that’s a good point. In your experience and years of sailing there, did you spend most of your time in marinas or on anchor?
Leo: Yeah, mostly anchor, but also, in Greece for example, it’s also very easy in the more off beaten track to find like either really cheap harbors or free fishing harbors or so on. But there is a lot of anchorages. The rest of Europe, like coming down the Atlantic coast is mostly harbors so it’s a bit more expensive. When it comes down, maybe one third of the entire stays were on anchor.
Pernille: I think this season where we were just sailing around Greece, we spent maybe 150 euros, on marinas. And that might be like three days of sailing for the English Channel, you know.
So it’s a very different budget in Greece.
Leo: Yeah, it’s like six euros, maybe seven per night. It has gotten more expensive since we left. I think a lot of harbors that were free, they now actually charge and then often it’s quite steep. But yeah, you can often, or most of the times, anchor quite nicely.
Annika: And it sounds just as an idea or a concept. It sounds amazing. Like, I’ll just anchor off here off to the Greek islands somewhere.
Pernille: Yeah. Yeah.
Annika: Let’s take a quick break. When we return, Leo and Pernille will share their experiences sailing in Ireland and the UK.
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Annika: But yeah, that’s a really good point that there’s definitely a price difference depending on where you go and how long you’re staying and all that but uh, Yeah, the mediterranean is dreamy, but I Also love the UK as a destination. I used to live there in Scotland though, but still lovely area and I know you mentioned you sailed to Ireland and the UK, which is obviously a very different sailing from the Mediterranean madness because there just aren’t as many cruisers out there.
Of course there are some because the Brits are big sailors as well but compared to the madness of the Mediterranean maybe a little fewer people there. But how is your experience, you mentioned before that you really like the UK or sailing in England and all that but tell me a little bit more what makes that area a special place for sailing?
Pernille: I mean, we loved it there .
We would have loved to spend more time when the season was ending, otherwise we would have kept going, we might have gone to Scotland. I think, for me in Ireland, where we were sailing, it was, the nature is so beautiful there, the wildlife is amazing. There was one day where Leo and his dad, they were fishing and you were pulling one mackerel after the other out of the water.
And we were there next to a little rock island. And there were just lots of seals hanging out. And that was the port. And then I looked starboard. And then I could see dolphins hunting. At the same time. And that is the only place where I experienced that. Like, it is just amazing in Ireland. If you’re really passionate about the nature and the wildlife.
It’s fantastic there.
Leo: And in some ways it’s not that different. Like, it’s a bit like Greece, for example, has a lot of islands, a lot of coves. You can anchor in quite a lot of places. It’s just colder, not so much sun. The water is not as clear and warm. But for sure, during summer, like peak of summer, I would 100 percent prefer being in Ireland or Scotland than being in Greece. But the season is short.
Pernille: I think there was also a huge relief for us, because when we arrived in Ireland and in the UK, we had been in the Canaries and then in the Azores for about a year. We don’t speak Spanish. We don’t speak Portuguese. People are lovely, but we cannot talk to anybody. So it, so it was just like, you get to Ireland, the Irish are very, very friendly people. And you’re like, I can actually talk to people. That’s fantastic. So it was just, Oh yeah. I really love that.
Annika: Yeah, that makes a difference for sure. Um, I live in France and I speak some French, but I’m not fluent and I went on a trip to the UK and it was like night and day. I was like, I can talk to strangers and they’re totally fine with being talked to. I can talk to somebody at a coffee shop and there are coffee shops.
It was such a cultural shock even though I’m literally coming from one country over. So I can completely relate to that. Having spent a year somewhere where you don’t speak the local language and then going somewhere where you can actually have normal conversations and have a little chit chat with your neighbors.
It’s fantastic. It’s underrated, but it’s totally amazing.
Pernille: Yeah, it was really nice. And I think for us traveling with a dog, like the UK and Ireland just, I think the most dog friendly destination in Europe. It’s so easy to take him around with us. You know, you can go to the pups and you can bring the dog, which I think is absolutely fantastic.
And I wish there was more like normal in Denmark to do something like that. But, yeah, it’s just easy to have a dog there. And, yeah, it’s just very dog friendly so that also makes, yeah, just life in general easier. It’s easy to go exploring when you have your dog with you.
Annika: Yeah, and that’s a really good point because, you do sail with a dog and I ideally will also sail with my dog. And I wanted to ask you based on your experience, about traveling with a dog and if there’s been any places that have been maybe challenging with a dog. I mean, I know you’re in the EU, so your dog must have the EU passport. So, immigration wise, it’s not that difficult. But What about in terms of like attitude? Like you said, the UK is so welcoming to dogs and they’re allowed everywhere. But have you faced the opposite somewhere?
Pernille: I will say like in general, actually, like whenever we go to Marina or Harbor, like the, the Harbor Masters, usually crazy about dogs. So you always get a really positive welcome there, which is really nice. So in terms of sailing specifically, I don’t think that’s a problem at all. But of course, there are some countries that have more of a culture of having the dogs around than others.
And you can feel that. I don’t think it’s really ever been a place where we thought it was an issue.
Leo: We were often a bit of an attraction, supping with the dog around. Oh
Pernille: yeah, we are in a lot of tourist albums. Or at least on a lot of iPhones.
Especially, we were anchored in the river in Porto. And then we would go to the town and Leo would paddle me and the dog and himself, of course, on the same paddle board. And every time we looked up, there was this row of tourists taking photos of us. It was just like sitting there waving like a little princess, being paddled ashore.
Leo: But otherwise, no, never really a problem. I mean, there’s a few islands where you cannot bring the dog.
Pernille: There are a few like nature reserves, that we had to skip, but it’s really once or twice that has happened.
Leo: I mean, we could have still gone, but we weren’t allowed to bring the dog ashore. Then it would be a bit of a torture to leave him there. But otherwise, no, never really a problem. The one tricky part is going to the UK and, back from Europe, so it’s not really possible with the boat, unless you’re coming from Ireland. As we understand it.
Pernille: It is, you cannot sail from, mainland EU to the UK with a dog. But you can sail from the Azores to Ireland, from Ireland to the UK with a dog.
Leo: And nobody cares.
Pernille: So yeah, if we’d gone the other way, it might have been more difficult, but yeah, we went the right way around.
Annika: Yes, and that’s a really good point because yeah, you do need to think about not much in Europe but yeah, the UK is one that is now a little bit different.
And I am happy to report that France is very dog friendly for anyone who is listening. I take my dog everywhere, and everybody in France takes their dog everywhere. No problem. Dogs are welcome.
Leo: It seems to be changing the last years more and more.
Pernille: I think that that’s one of the things if you’re sailing around with a dog that’s a little bit more of a darker side of things and I think it is getting better, but you have to be aware of, you just watch your dog when you’re outside because some people will still put out poison and other nasty things and it’s still a bit of a problem, especially in rural Greece. Which is maybe not something you would think of, so much in, in other countries, but that’s definitely still, I think, a problem.
Leo: Also Italy, maybe not, maybe not targeted, but maybe if they have a rat problem, they put rat poison out. We have heard some bad stories.
Annika: Yea, thanks for sharing that. That’s a really good tip also to just watch after your dog.
Do you find in marinas or like when you’re off the boat that having a dog helps you, connect with people more? Like, is that sort of like a, what I found here in France, it’s often like a talking point. Like people want to come say hi to my dog.
Pernille: That is definitely a thing, and another thing is like, When you’re sailing, for instance, down, around the coast in the Atlantic, and there’s so many people who are doing the same distance as you, so you will go into the same marinas and stuff, but people would remember us because they remember the dog.
So people would come over and like, oh, we’ve seen you a couple of times before. Do you want to have a glass of wine together or whatever? So it’s really a conversation starter and that’s actually via Kai that we made a lot of friends.
Leo: Yeah, and it does force you often to go on land when you probably wouldn’t go otherwise, which is a plus and a minus. Sometimes you arrive somewhere late. You’re tired And then you have to… I mean often he’s fine. He will go on deck and will do his business, but I feel often sorry, especially if you can see the land if there’s still daylight he can smell it Like I can’t do it to you. But that’s nice because then again, you get out of your comfort zone, you have a nice walk at the beach. So, it’s more of a plus than a minus.
Pernille: Yeah, I don’t feel like it’s actually really held us back having a dog with us in any way.
Annika: Yeah, well, he clearly looks like he’s enjoying himself. just having watched, some of your videos and he just so happy.
Now, let’s talk about a bit about your YouTube channel, and your website, which are both called Sailing AGH, A Green Heading, and it sounds to me like there’s a lot of meaning behind that name. Could you share what inspired that name, A Green Heading, and what does it represent to you?
Pernille: I think there’s like two sides to it. The first thing is that we are quite nerdy about the environment and we do talk about it sometimes in our videos and we kind of wanted it to be right there, like, you know, it’s right there in the title so you know what you’re getting with us because we do talk about plastic issues, especially in Greece and so on.
But there’s also another side to it, um, which is a bit more of like, An internal joke between us is that, because we do get seasick, it’s like, why is it not a blue heading? It’s a green heading because we’re always looking for land.
So, yeah. So that’s the meaning of that name.
Annika: Oh, that’s good. That’s good. Yeah, no, that’s great. And it’s always great to hear from eco friendly sailors, if I can classify you as such. Because there’s a lot of issues still, in the world are related to environment and climate change and recycling, and you are kind of first hand seeing some of these issues traveling from different countries with different infrastructure, like coming from Denmark, where you recycle everything. You know, you got like six different bins where you put your things and then maybe you go somewhere. I don’t know. Maybe southern Spain. Maybe there isn’t as much or somewhere else. So it’s interesting to follow that.
Pernille: Yeah, we are by no means perfect in any way. we don’t have an electric engine or anything. We wish we did, but we can’t afford it. But, it’s just, sailing around, as you say, you do see these problems, first hand. Like, you sail past islands in Greece, where it’s just black. Dead trees, because there’s been a forest fire there.
We see the forest fires. We’ve seen refugees traveling and heard of the rescue missions at night on the radio and it, it all becomes very real. And, I think it’s just, we want to share that part of it.
Leo: Yeah, also, the plastic, I mean, although probably if you compare it to climate change, it’s a small problem, but it’s such an imminent thing, especially for sailors.
Like it can ruin the whole experience. I mean, a lot of people more and more get tangled in garbage, but then you go to a nice beach, it’s full of garbage. And we’ve also seen that every time we pick up garbage, over the years we see more and more people doing it. And although arguably it does very small change to the overall picture, it’s nice seeing other cruisers collecting garbage.
Pernille: And I think in Greece, for instance, like, we as sailors, we see it because we go to those remote beaches as well. But if you go on a nice hotel holiday to Crete, you might not see it because they will clean those beaches. So you don’t see how bad it really is.
Leo: And it’s not only Greece or the Med, it’s everywhere.
Annika: Do you find in marinas that you’ve been to that they generally have good recycling facilities?
Pernille: I think a lot of marinas are trying. In general. But I think if the country doesn’t really have the infrastructure, then it doesn’t really help.
Leo: And a lot of marinas are really innovative. And the same in Greece. You can see some harbors. They even have water refillment stations.
You can get cold water. Super good water for free or for 10 cents, like for 20 liters. They have recycling for the nets. They have this and that but people are not using it so much . Then you also don’t know where does the recycling really end? Does it follow the cycle? We are not even sure it happens in the European countries so much like do they really recycle the plastic here or do they burn it?
Annika: Yeah, no, it’s a good point. Or do they ship it somewhere? Like, Canada used to ship, or probably still does, ship some of their plastic to China. Because, why not? Just put it in a boat. It’s out of sight, it’s out of mind.
Now, You’ve been sailing for years as we’ve talked, and as someone who is potentially looking to become a liveaboard in Europe, I definitely want your advice. What would you advise someone to do, or do you have any advice for someone who is looking to become a liveaboard, somewhere in Europe, whether it’s the Med or Denmark or somewhere else?
Leo: Don’t wait too long.
Pernille: Yeah. Do it.
I think what we have seen, we’ve been quite happy with the size of the boat that we have. But, I mean, it all depends on what your specific needs are, whatever, but really, yeah, and your budget and what you’re actually going to, and where you’re going to be sailing and how you’re going to be sailing and yada, yada.
But I think we met a few people that had a tendency to think that they needed a bigger boat and maybe kind of regretted it. Um, so yeah, it’s just really consider if you really need that big of a boat or maybe you could go to smaller because there are a lot of things that just become easier if you have a smaller boat.
Leo: Yeah. Also the cost go up. Everything in marinas is difficult to find. I mean unless you’re really hardcore and you like only spent your days on anchor then maybe a big boat isn’t really a huge increase in cost. It still is I think even in Greece you have the cruising tax. So If you are above 12 meters, you suddenly pay over 100 euros a month. If you are below 12 meters, it’s just 30 euros. So it makes a difference.
Pernille: And it’s happened quite a few times where, you know, it’s hard to get a spot in the marina and lots of boats are anchored outside. But because we, at least in the Med and in the Canaries, this boat is actually quite a small boat. We’ve been able to squeeze in when everybody else couldn’t get a spot and stuff like that. So there are definitely advantages to being a little bit of a smaller boat.
Leo: Yeah, and keeping it simple as well, a lot of boats now are so complicated, especially the new ones. They seem to go from port to port just for maintenance, and then you’re waiting for parts and I’m not sure this is so fun.
Pernille: Yeah. Just don’t overcomplicate things. And I think in terms of staying like liverboard, especially if you are here in the north. The fact that we’ve been able to stay for three, this is actually now our fourth winter in Denmark on, on the boat, is because we were able to find this marina that we are in now, where the facilities are really nice, like, we use the marina showers and they’re really good, and the harbour masters are really nice, and you know, all of these little things, because living aboard during the winter, it comes with quite a few challenges, but if you’re in a really nice marina and you can make life around you easy, like it’s not too far from work or whatever it is, it just helps a lot.
Then it’s easier to deal with all the other challenges that come with living aboard during a cold winter.
Leo: Yeah. And the other thing I think is if you are really a live aboard and you work still full time or mostly full time. It’s quite hard to do a lot of sailing. Like you should dial down on your expectations and make small moves, like just enjoy it.
Find a nice area where you want to sail, where you can spend a year sailing, maybe 1000, 2000 miles per year. That’s already quite a lot. I don’t think you can say, Oh, I’m working full time. I’m going to sail the whole Med.
Either you’re not going to be good at your work or you’re not going to be enjoying yourself.
Pernille: I think as newbies it’s easy to underestimate that how much work actually goes into the full time cruising, especially like those of us who go into it maybe with not so much sailing experience already. It might look a bit easy from the outside, but it is, it’s great, there’s no complaining here, but it is, it is work, you don’t have that much time, you think you’re just sitting there, just reading books all day.
Sometimes it’s like that.
Leo: I mean, maybe full time job is an overstatement, but I think it’s for sure a part time job.
Because you need to plan, you need to to find new supermarkets, you need to find the marina, then the weather changed, you need to move the boat, something will break, something needs fixing…
Pernille: if you need to cover a certain distance, the wind is your boss, like, you’re not making the plans, you know, like, the wind is deciding when you’re doing things.
Leo: No, I mean, there are a few people that are a bit special, I think. They have Starlink. So they do sail and still work while they sail.
I was thinking I could do that as well because I have a part time job. We had Starlink, but during the 10 days or even before, I was like, no, I cannot.
I’m too seasick. I don’t want to do it. I cannot do it, so unless you’re really special. it’s very challenging, I think, to find the time. Maybe it also interferes too much with what you’re actually
doing. And it can be stressful, and then, what’s the point?
Pernille: Yeah, you need to enjoy it. If you’re going for such an adventure, you need to be able to enjoy it.
Annika: Yeah, building that travel time. Because like you said, if you have, say a nine to five job, even if it’s a remote one, but you know, the weather window may not come at five o’clock on a Friday afternoon
when you’re ready to go. But that was a really good tip to maybe focus or stay in an area that has a lot of sailing around it and just kind of longer term home base almost, and just explore that area. That’s a, good one. Yeah. I’ll have to think about what that could be now.
Leo: I think Greece is, for example, you can do that there. There’s a lot of bays , and we know a few friends that do that. Just stay basically in one bay, and then on their vacations they go sailing around or they move their boat a little bit and they really seem to love that.
Annika: Exactly. And that’s the beauty of the lifestyle. There are so many different ways to do it. Some people go long distances all the time in their first year, they’ve made it from Europe to Caribbean and others have made it two countries over or something.
So that’s what I love about it. It’s kind of you choose your own adventure on how fast you want to go, how far you want to go and, and that kind of thing, which is nice.
Now I have to ask, since you are wintering on your boat do you have condensation issues and if yes, how do you deal with them?
Pernille: Yes, we have. Over time you learn like, oh, I can stuff a lot of things in that cupboard, but not in that cupboard, you know, it will be black by the end of the winter if you do that. We have a dehumidifier. Yeah.
Leo: When we bought the boat since the beginning, we insulated around most of the accessible parts. So around 19 square meters everywhere. Next to the bed, under the bed, under the floor. So that was a lot of work. And that helped a lot. We have our hatches. There like, in the winter we put like an extra thin double glass. Otherwise it’s just dripping. Some of our side windows as well. But they are always wet. We just have a cloth and once or twice per day we clean it. An air heater helps a lot, like a diesel or anything that circulates the air. Flipping up the mattresses in the morning, like wherever they touch the hull, it’s a problem.
I think we are probably now after all of that, a bit better than most boats, but it’s still, an issue like I don’t think you can ever really solve it entirely unless you design a boat from scratch or buy a really good insulated boat. Some winters we even put like some cheap yoga mats or foam, we stick them around the bedroom because if it’s really cold it condensates and it starts dripping in the morning. I think the real problem starts when it’s below 3 degrees.
Pernille: As Leo just explained, you figure out how you can deal with it in small ways, and then, yeah. You learn to live with it, and it’s only for a few months, and then it’s over.
Leo: But you need to deal with it, like, you need to remember, otherwise at some point you lift a mattress and it’s soaking wet. Moldy.
Pernille: We’ve definitely experienced that. Leo would ask during the winter, some other liveaboards, like, how do you deal with the humidity and condensation?
And they’d be like, Oh, we don’t have a problem. There’s nothing. Oh, we don’t need a dehumidifier. Come spring. We just see them carry out these really black mattresses and everything. It’s just like, yeah, sure. You didn’t have a problem. Everyone has that problem. Yeah. You’re just living in denial if you think you don’t.
Annika: Yeah, that’s, that’s scary. You definitely need to stay on top of that. But that is great. That’s a really good practical advice, so thank you for sharing that. Now that you have completed your circumnavigation of Denmark, what is next for you?
Pernille: Well, yeah, so we ended up sailing full time for three and a half years, and now we are back in Denmark, and we’re gonna do a bit of work here. Like we used our savings for three and a half years and Yeah, we’re broke. We sailed until we were broke so but we’re still living on the boat and intend to continue to do that and also keep sailing like this is not the end of it.
I think it’s quite typical for a lot of people to you go back and sell the boat and move on to another stage in your life, whatever that might be. But we are actually quite happy with this.
Leo: Probably shorter trips.
Pernille: We’re very excited about the Scandinavian summers and the long days and that part of it, like, that is amazing and um, our first night sail wasn’t really a night sail. It was in the summer and the sun just went up again. It was, it never really got dark.
Leo: Yeah, that’s really nice.
Pernille: Yeah, so we’re looking forward to, to doing that a little bit.
Annika: Thank you so much for taking the time to chat with me. I really enjoyed this overview of your European adventure. It’s been great to have you on as guests.
Pernille: Well, thank you so much for having us. It’s been really fun.
Annika: Hey, one quick thing before we go, if you’re enjoying the podcast, I’d love it if you could leave a rating or review on your favorite podcast platform. It helps others discover the show and supports me as I bring the podcast back after our break. Plus, I’d really love to hear your thoughts and feedback.
Thanks so much for being part of this journey and for tuning into this week’s episode. If you’d like to learn more about Leo and Pernille’s adventures, check out the links to their YouTube and socials in the show notes, or on liveaboardsailingpodcast.com. Until then, take care and enjoy the journey. Bye for now.